The Circumcision Debate – To Cut or Not to Cut?
Written by Fiona on August 2, 2010 – -by Fiona Hollis
Morning everyone!
Phew – I don’t know about you – but the last 2 weeks were amazing! So many beautiful articles, tips and insight from wonderful speakers and from YOU.
I love the interaction between Rawmom and all you Rawmoms out there – it’s key to growing together and creating an honest, loving and open community.
We all have our own opinions and seldom are they palatable to everyone. Opinions are born from parental conditioning, culture, personal circumstance, personal trauma – amongst many other things. Discussion is a great way to grow and learn from one another, so I felt it would be a great start to post YOUR responses to the most controversial wisdom nugget of pregnancy month. Circumcision, by our Jewish Raw Mom Karen Ranzi.
I would like to thank each and every one of you for feeling able to express yourselves clearly, I am honored that people feel able to express themselves without judgment. It is important to remember that judgment of others is really judgment of ourselves. We and we alone are responsible for our own personal actions and feelings. As soon as we feel the need to attack or judge someone for expressing themselves – we are in error and need to feel why we are so provoked by this opinion.
Reactions are to be expected, and anger when triggered is a great place to start looking at injuries within our souls. Often anger is capping emotion to grief. It is easier to feel anger than grief as anger is a powerful feeling, whereas grief is a very vulnerable feeling. Vulnerable is a very open place to be – and many of us are scared to feel this way for fear of pain.
When you read your replies to Karen Ranzi’s article on Circumcision – please note your own reactions, and take responsibility for your reaction. It is very unloving when people do not take responsibility for their own emotional reactions and choose to project anger at others – that is not our intention here on rawmom.
“As a Jewish woman I strongly believe in the practice if circumcision. I firmly believe in the laws given to us by G-d as absolutely just and necessary (even if they don’t “make sense ” to me.)
I do believe that I have read research opposite of which you state that there are definite health benefits from the procedure.
Please do more research and in the future I would appreciate not getting emails which trample on my (and many others) religious beliefs.”
“As a mom, who was severely “trust” challenged because of “poor” childhood/adult experiences, for the past 10 years, I have been working extremely diligently at loving my own children well. In doing so, I have made some very difficult and pain-staking decisions on what’s best for them.
Because I have gained helpful insights each day when I open the “wisdom nuggets”, I was looking forward to opening this one. However, and to the fault of no one, I am left with a deep sense of sadness and regret because of the decision we made 6 years ago to circumcise our son so he wouldn’t be “laughed at and would look like dad and stay cleaner.
At the time, I felt a strong need NOT to do it and read everything I could find on the subject, as I had wanted to protect and nurture and love well all our precious innocent babies. But my husband on the other hand…”
“Thank you so much for this. I totally agree.
In turn, I feel animals should not be castrated — that it’s *not* the obvious response to overpopulation. I mean, we don’t see it as the obvious response to human overpopulation…and I don’t think we’re going to exercise our brains voluntarily toward coming up with better responses until castration is ruled out as one.
I wonder if Raw Mom might consider expanding the definition of ”Mom” to pet parents as well. I think that’d be so, so, so awesome. Well, thanks again, for everything you’re doing!”
“I have to say I was quite dismayed to see such a skewed and inaccurate article coming from Raw Moms.
Circumcision did not start in 1880 – that’s ridiculous! It started 4000 years ago when Almighty God chose Abraham as His own, to be a nation. Religious or not, you can’t deny that circumcision has a very long and side-effect free history. In fact, the Jews became much more robust than their neighbors for thousands of years, and every male was circumcised. Also, they were commanded to circumcise the infants on the 8th day of birth. Well, if you know about infant vitamin K production you know that it and other clotting elements peak on the 8th day outside the womb, making circumcision (performed as it was in ancient times) perfectly safe. Yes it hurts a little, but so does the stupid heel prick thingy we have to do, and heaven forbid, vaccinations.
Come on now. This isn’t Fox news or CNN. Please sort the “spin” into the trash bin and send out real wisdom to your readers.”
“Karen Ranzi is not correct in one of her facts. Circumcision actually began well before the 1800′s. It began many years before Christ’s birth. It is probably explained in the documentary which you mention.”
“I knew there would be some angry reaction to this article. It is never well received but someone must tell the truth. 1880 was date when routine circumcision began in the U.S. Circumcision in Jewish history goes way back but there are many Jews today, including rabbis, who have chosen to change this ritual to an alternative bris which spares the boy of circumcision but still celebrates the religious rite. I am Jewish as is Laurie Evans, who wrote the chapter on the Harm of Circumcision for my book.” Karen Ranzi
“I really needed this nugget for reassurance – thank you so much for sharing it!!!!!!”
“Well done for posting this post about this very touchy issue. So just you know, there is a growing movement even within the orthodox Jewish community who are against circumcision and would not do it, even though their religion is demanding this.
I am married to a Jew, and even though my baby boy would have not been technically a Jew, (since I am not Jewish) We had heated discussions with many of the family members on my partner’s side about circumcising our child if it is a boy. The moment a religion I practice demands the member of its congregation to mutilate their child
is the moment I would leave that group/religion and would search for my own truth.
I have attended many circumcision ceremonies and could not stay in the room while it was performed, neither could the mother of the child…. The baby does feel the pain, it is a brutal procedure, and yes it can lead to many serious side effects.”
“I really wish that people see it for what it really is, which is the violation of the child’s body with no justifiable health reason whatsoever.
Thank you again for posting it and bravo for Karen Ranzi for speaking up so bravely about it!!!!”
“I just read in the Globe and Mail in the morning: New research shows that children can carry permanent “pain memory” from their experience of untreated pain- which means a needle can create a fearful patient for lie. Romeo Ranoco/Reuters
They are talking about getting a needle, but what about circumcision, obviously that is even more painful….”
“I think you did a fine job. I’m right there with you. My boys are “in tact.” I couldn’t fathom cutting off part of their bodies! I didn’t even like the heel stick for the blood test! :) I enjoy your newsletters.”
“Your topic brought me to tears again as my son is now 23 and I KNEW NOTHING about this back then. I only found out when he was 5 or 6 and was so wrenched with guilt I thought I would die.
I am sobbing now for sadness for all boys that have had to endure this trial. I wish I had known sooner but that was not to be 
Thank you for bringing this up here to let the truth be known!! It is grossly unnecessary to circumcise and CRIMINAL to do so, just as it is to cut off puppy tails. GRRRRRR!
Thank you for your loving information and guidance in care of our beloved children!”
“THANK YOU FOR THIS!!!!
We chose not to circumcise – and it’s nice to know there is more support for this choice.”
“I forwarded that circumcision info to my 25 yr old son who I didn’t have circumcised. His father was German so he did match his dad, but I would not have wanted to have it done anyway!
His father always said he felt like he had so much more sensitivity in that area than American men. I loved reading even more reasons why it was a good idea. I appreciate your pointing out to us what the rest of the world is doing, to give perspective when moms are making choices.
Like the military families, sometimes folks don’t want to look at why they choose certain knee-jerk responses (such as sending a child off to war), esp when it is painful to their children. That is the only reason I can imagine it would be controversial. You just have to have compassion that they HAVE to justify their choices as sane to keep going. Spirit expresses through everything, so all is good anyway! : )”
“Many parents today realize that if they had been given accurate information about circumcision, they would never have let anyone circumcise their baby. I am one of those parents, and that is why I do the work that I do…”
Mariln Fayre Milos, R.N., Founder and Executive Director of NOCIRC
Read Karen Ranzi’s article on Circumcision
Raw Mom’s Pregnancy Page - archived articles and wisdom nuggets
National Organization of Circumcision Information Resource Centers
Tags: anger, bris, circumcision, creating healthy children, cut, foreskin, jewish, karen, karen ranzi, pain, penis, ranzi
Posted in Raw Food for Kids, Raw Food for Women, Raw Food Health | 12 Comments »
By Natasha on Aug 2, 2010
We chose not to circumcise our sons after much prayer and research. We are a Christian military family of five and are preparing for my husbands 2nd deployment. It’s a difficult sacrifice we make as a family because we care about the freedom and quality of life of people we don’t even know…even if they don’t appreciate it. Neither decision was a ‘knee-jerk’ reaction.
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By Linda on Aug 2, 2010
If you believe the New Testament you read that, with the birth of Jesus, the Mosaic law was done away. Circumcision is from the Mosaic law.
I circumcised one of my sons, who had all sorts of problems with his penis, urination and infections. We did not circumcise our other sons.
I think doing this so son can look like his father is a weak excuse. When a child is old enough explain that you have learned things since your parents and chose not to “C” your son for those reasons. I think vanity is a pretty poor excuse for performing surgery. Our children are smart and can understand our explanations.
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By Keely on Aug 2, 2010
Forgive me if I am ignorant, but why would it matter if a child “matched” his dad? Who, besides the VERY immediate family would ever know?
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By Carissa on Aug 2, 2010
I believe in respecting my child. I would not hurt my child intentionally.
There is another CHOICE here ladies – instead of arguing what is right or wrong for YOU – WHY NOT ASK YOUR SONS WHAT HIS CHOICE WOULD BE????
When he is older and understands all points of view and the pain he will feel in the procedure, why not ask if he wants to be circumcised or not? It is his body and he has the right to choose if he wants to endure the pain or not. He has the right to choose if we wants to match his dad or not.
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By Miriam Mara on Aug 2, 2010
When my 3 boys were born I was very involved in the non-circumcision movement. I could see no reason to change what my children were created with. I could have written the article you wrote so beautifully, and I was very passionate about it. THEN…when my boys were 12, 15 and 17, the each personally chose to get circumcised. We learned the spiritual (not religious) reasons why circumcision is important. There is NO physical reason to do it, there is the most powerful spiritual reason, once you understand the role the foreskin plays in the metaphysical world. The explanation is fairly straight forward, however a bit longer than I will get into at this moment. Anyone is welcome to contact me if they are interested to know more.
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By Lori J. Bayne on Aug 2, 2010
I just want to say that even though my words are intense, they are not intended as insulting toward anyone.
First, I think Carissa makes a good point. I think that once a child has a good vocabulary, then say at the age of 5 they should be circumcised if they say they want to. I can’t imagine one saying he wanted it, unless being trained first in dogma or fear. I certainly would give no permission to have my clitoral hood removed, and there is research which shows that baring the head of the penis the way circumcision does is very similar to baring the clitoris. Then stuff that into a diaper for 2 years … it’s no wonder there are so many sexual issues in the world! This constant, unnecessary pain!
I do not feel that any reason is adequate justification for mutilation, whether it’s religious or not. If it’s for medical reasons, then let’s make sure that the illness occurs before we circumcise. If it’s for cleanliness issues, then let’s try a LOT harder to keep our boys cleaner first and see IF it turns into a medical issue. If it does, then cross that bridge when you come to it. Saying that he will endure pain later POSSIBLY is no excuse for forcing him to endure pain now and forever. I say forever, because my 39-year old fiance has scars from his circumcision, and he still remembers the pain of it. Yes, he remembers his circumcision! And he said all he felt, even though he didn’t have words yet, was the feeling of “I just got here. WHY are you doing this to me??? Mommy! Please help me! SSSTTTOOOPPP!!!!!!!!!!” But they didn’t stop, and he has had painful erections his entire life, even in childhood. He said that the head of his penis didn’t get fully desensitized to being rubbed against his underwear until he was about 14 years old. So he suffered the pain of circumcision for 14 years!!! And now he’s partially numb, out of necessity (or the constant discomfort would drive him crazy). But somewhere, he isn’t numb, and his mind has had to split to cover up his pain.
Tell me that isn’t torture.
And if people are doing circumcision for religious reasons, I think we all need to think clearly about what we believe and why. All religious books are written by humans, not any God, and humans make mistakes. All major religions tell us that we are flawed and need something outside of ourselves to cleanse us, make us whole, and fix us. Then why let us write the religious books?
Why send an incompetent child to do the work of an infallible father?
If a parent really loves their child, they do not view them as something imperfect, dirty, partial, or a fixer-upper. If we are made in God’s image, then God either has a foreskin or someone circumcised him, and if someone circumcised him, who did it? Why would any god make a human incorrectly, with disposable parts, if they are infallible? Why not create them without foreskins? This is one more provable mistranslation of an original text, and it has cost millions of babies a valuable part of their bodies to maintain control over the masses. If someone told me that I had to chop off a piece of my genitalia to prove I was “theirs”, I’d run screaming for the hills (and I’d call the police). Anyone saying such a thing would be considered a sociopath and be put away to protect themselves and society from harm. But under the guise of religion, we all just fall in line and don’t protect our babies? Why? What fear do we have of our afterlife that justifies us slicing up our boys? Are we trading their penises for our immortal souls? I’d give up my soul to protect my baby, and no one … no god, no human, no threat, NOTHING would change my mind!
I don’t say anything to offend anyone. I’m merely saying, let’s look at WHY we are told to chop off necessary, vital parts of infants, when all we have is trust that what we’ve been told is true, with absolutely no proof. I mean, I think they meant well when these books were written. Times were different, it’s true. People didn’t know about sanitation back then. Maybe it’s what seemed to make the most sense to them based on the information they had. I wasn’t there, so I have to concede that perhaps there was a reason that seemed logical at the time. But the same people who wrote these books were people who believed that the Earth was flat, and that the Sun revolved around it. Why didn’t their god tell them differently about that back then? Why didn’t he just teach them better, less painful ways to exist? Why didn’t he send down messages about sanitation?
Just because it may have been effective at one point doesn’t mean that it always will be, and I am of the opinion that it is used now as a form of control. If you can control a person’s genitals, then you can control every other aspect of them completely! And if you can terrify them into being controlled from week or even day one, then they will potentially never develop good reasoning skills or try to fight back. Losing our reason and our fight is what makes this all the sadder, because then we pass the mutilation down to the next generation, and not only don’t question it, but defend it. Mutilation is mutilation is mutilation is mutilation is mutilation. I will never agree with it under any circumstance, especially not from someone who refuses to show me his face.
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By Lori J. Bayne on Aug 2, 2010
Miriam ~ If your boys chose to do it, then I would never tell another person who wishes to do something with their body that they shouldn’t. How did they come to this decision? Who taught them abou the metaphysical/spiritual reason for it? I am personally very interested in their reasons for their choosing it … I say write us a tome! I’m quite curious! (Hey, I already wrote a tome, so you can, too.) ;o)
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By Mummy Dearest on Aug 3, 2010
Way before my son was born — nay, even conceived — I was taught from myriad sources that Nature does not waste resources. Everything has a purpose.
It seemed ridiculous to even consider snipping away a flap of skin that his DNA told his body to put there. Why even bother considering it? I could not find any compelling reasons.
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By curious cut man on Aug 4, 2010
“metaphysical world” This is a form of cabala witchcraft, where the witch mother or witch doctor tells the son lies mixed with truth to get him to do something that she wants him to do. Am I right?
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By Martin Burkarf on Sep 16, 2010
I have a hard time believing circumcision is even a topic among intelligent Americans. Before I came to the US i had never heard of parents (aside Jews, who i disgree with on this) voluntarily having this done to their sons. It took a bunch of people to confirm before i believed this was/is really happening. Obviously it’s an absurd perversion to mutilate a baby’s penis. What is wrong with Americans in general that this is even still a practice in this century or was even in the previous century? I can’t imagine any other non-jewish country where this would even be discussed. That this debate even takes place in this forum of intelligent, caring people tells me that humans are more concerned with protecting what their ancestors did than doing what is right for their child. It’s like people believe just because their ancestors did it, they must have been right, even if they mutilated babies. Or they feel like taking right action now would make them into a bad person, because they broke with the ancestors. I hope more and more people shake off these spiritual shackles.
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By Roze on Sep 16, 2010
As a mother, I wonder how women in your country can have their babies circd at such a tender age. Coming from a Muslim community, we often snip our boys a bit later, preferably around 6-8 years, and they always recover within a few days.The only case I know of an infant being circumcised ended up in such distress to his mother that she wished she never had it done at that age. His penis became sore and infected and started bleeding, taking more than two weeks to heal. All this while he was in terrible pain.
My friends, all mothers of sons, who took a look at the baby’s penis spoke harshly of the mother. They said that it looked much nicer for boys to have a foreskin in their infancy, and even said that it served a protective function in the early years.
Not that they are against circumcising. Being Muslims, they know it must be done. In fact, they happily had their sons snipped when they were seven or eight years old or even a bit younger. But what they were against was to do it in infancy. I hope American mothers could learn from our less sophisticated but more knowledgeable women when it comes to such matters like child care.
Americans of course I understand are more keen on following the Jewish practice of early circumcision. The fact that they have adopted male circumcision while rejecting its equivalent female circumcision also shows this Jewish influence.
Although girls in my country are often circumcised early in keeping with our Islamic faith, I was for some reason not done with the result that I suffered frequent infections under my clitoral hood and recurring UTI’s. I was an adult when I chose to get myself done. The doctor who did it took off the hood and I have no regrets. The result is a clean clit free of smells and infections and a better sex life. Its called a hoodectomy and I learn its fast catching on in the west as well.
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By Sherri Roman on Jan 15, 2011
Wow. Interesting opinions…I decided, as my child’s parent, as I decide many things for my child as his parent, in favor of circumcision because Jesus, whom we serve, was circumcized. I did not decide to have it done because of health reasons, if there are any. I did not decide to have it done because I thought God would show more favor upon my son for doing so (since I have read in the New Testament that being circumsized does not grant one favor in God’s eyes anymore than not being circumcized). I decided to have my son circumcized because Mary decided to have her son circumsized knowing He is our Lord. He is the one we serve. He is the one we follow after. When my son is a man he will decide for himself what he will do hereafter regarding his life and how he will serve the Lord, but until then, God has entrusted him to me.
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